There are over 1,000 active casinos in the United States and just about every one of those has a different market. Knowing, examining, and studying these specific markets can lead to newfound data that can make a massive impact on the financial success of the property. URComped CEO, Craig Shacklett, dives deep into casino marketing analytics with Principle of Strategic Casino Marketing Solutions, Heidi Hamers, in this recent interview. How to find key segments and capitalize on incentives, how to best serve your market, how to use different studies to uncover impacting information, and more are discussed in this informative interview. Listen to podcast version.

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Full Transcript Below

(0:00-0:33) Craig Shacklett: Hi everybody, Craig Shacklett from URComped and TRIO CRM here. And I’ve got a very exciting interview today. We’re going to be talking Casino marketing and getting really into the analytics side of it and what smart analytics can do for the bottom line. And I’ve got an expert here. This is Heidi Hamers, Principal at Strategic Casino Marketing Solutions. Heidi, thank you for being here.

(0:33-0:49) Heidi Hamers: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it, Craig. I have to tell you and it’s been a quite a long time. But I’ve followed your product URComped. And I think that there’s a lot of merits to the application. And yeah, I think it’s good stuff.

(0:49-1:45) CS: Well, I really appreciate that, especially coming from you. And I know you’ve got an extensive senior-level background in Casino marketing not just in one market, but really like you’ve been around the country. So in that, that carries a lot of weight. Because especially somebody that wants to… You know if you’re a consultant, but you’ve only ever worked in Rural Idaho or something like that. How much is that going to apply in a totally different market, but you’ve been around… So I’m excited to get into this. Yeah. Why won’t we get into this? Like I’ve said, I’ve been impressed with your… Like real analytical approach to marketing and finally, I twist your arm to get you on here. So let’s just say, you come into a new casino. What do you look at first? What is data are you trying to dig into? What’s your step one coming into a new market?

(1:45-2:46) HH: There’s a lot of data to look at and analyze. But probably the first thing I would look at would be a segment analysis to really understand exactly the broadband cuts of the data. Looking at not only worth segments, but distance. So taking geography into consideration. Looking at length of relationship whether or not the player is a lodger or non-lodger if in fact there is a hotel. But again drilling into the larger cuts of the data, so that you can narrowcast an opportunity to determine where you need to dig further to understand where is the opportunity and how big is that opportunity? You might find an opportunity, but it may not necessarily have credence in terms of the monetary commitment. It might be… The opportunity may be small as relates to how much money you can drive to the bottom line.

(2:46-3:10) CS: So you list a few different kind of key variables. So it was like distance from the casino. And I know it’s common, but I think a lot of casinos maybe take a cookie-cutter approach which isn’t necessarily the right way to go right? Maybe it’s… All right, inside the 30 miles is local and outside 30 miles is regional or something. But different markets can have different dynamics on the geography side, right?

(3:10-3:48) HH: I actually use Las Vegas as an example for that market. The entire market is within six miles in the Las Vegas local market. So you’re looking at micro markets there in terms of exploring for opportunities. Other Regional markets are much larger. So for example Southeast Louisiana that market. It’s pulling from as far as Houston, Texas, and further away. And that’s a day trip. So really understanding the market and what’s driving. And what is the propensity of people to drive?

(3:48-4:17) CS: So you’ve got the… Look at the region… And it sounds like, I think when we spoke before you said, “When you look at the data…” Sorry, I’ve got a… One of the interns coming in. But when you look at the data. You said, “The data kind of… you’ll see natural breaks.” Is that right? So what does that look like? And we could still say, “We can use geography again, but is it often…” And it’s like, “All right, these people… 0-5 miles man, they are coming on average x times a month.” But then…

(4:17-5:38) HH: Yeah, that’s a good point. Frequency is another variable. And it’s a really inherent variable when you’re breaking down who to look for opportunities. So for example, your high frequent player, a lot of times they’re coming nearly every day or every other day. And in which case you don’t need to put pressure on them or any additional pressure. You want to keep them in a maintenance mode. So you’re looking at your moderate and low frequent players for opportunity for growth. That’s where you’re upside potential is. But when you’re looking at the data, you’re looking at clusters of data. So if you put your data into a cluster analysis. And even if you don’t have advanced statistical software. There’s applications even within excel that can help you cluster your data to understand where those brakes might happen. There’s other statistical tactics. You can explore as well. If you have those kind of resources that can do that type of analysis. But I like to look at clusters to see where those breaks happen or should happen. And then cut the data accordingly. But it’s really important to have a good understanding of where your market is coming from. From a gravity study perspective. So if you haven’t done a gravity study of your market, you probably should do that as one of the first steps which…

(5:38-5:41) CS: And what is that gravity?

(5:41-6:23) HH: The gravity study… It essentially breaks down specifically where players are coming from. From either a county perspective or concentric rings from your property or a combination of both. And typography is commonly used for example drive time as opposed to concentric rings. And in which case you understand What is the gaming propensity within each area relative to your share? What are you getting from that area? And then you can understand where’s the opportunity or where’s the gap? Yep, I love gravity studies. And then you can measure your inroads against them as well.

(6:23-7:01) CS: Okay, so you’ll do cluster analysis gravity studies. And I don’t think we have time in this interview. It’s a good reason for folks listening to contact you, to actually do it. But from these studies, you will see okay, we’ve got 30 or 20 or whatever key segments. And then you said, “You’ll use that and it could be again based on value-based on distance” And you’ll say, “All right here are opportunities.” When you do the… After you do these cluster analysis, you find these different pockets of players. How do you know which ones are opportunity zones?

(7:01-9:19) HH: Well, you look for where’s the material value? What’s the upside potential? So again, if you’re looking at high frequent players, and you feel like you’re getting a not feel… If you’re looking at high frequent players and players that are coming. It might be as much as 8 or 10 times a month. And that’s your brake for high frequent player. How much more are you going to get them per month? How much more of their wallet or are you going to dilute that wallet? So there’s probably more opportunity in a mid frequent or low frequent player in terms of converting them for one more trip especially holds true with your high-end player base. When you think about your high frequent players, they probably have a relationship with everyone in your Casino from the security guard opening the door. To your slot attendant players club reps. They clearly know your host. They may even have a relationship with people in the hotel. You don’t need to forge relationships with them any more than maintaining that relationship. What you need to do is you need to cultivate a new relationship to grow additional trips. Which translates into additional revenue. And as you and I spoke before Craig, it’s really a conversion game. It’s a number game. So if you look at any other vertical in terms of sales. If you look at some of the online and/or digital metrics, there is a conversion standard. But the same holds true in gaming, in terms of the outbound contacts. So the more contacts that you make. The more that you differentiate that experience for that player that will result into a conversion. Now again, each market is different. But understanding specifically how many touchpoints you need to make with that player to make the conversion. And then, you start to measure productivity measures within the host department. So the more contacts you make. The more that you most likely will make that conversion. And you hold people to that conversion metric in terms of outbound Activity. That outbound Activity can be letter-writing, note card writing, telephone, email, text messaging Depends on the method of communication preferred by the player base.

(9:19-10:16) CS: So there’s a lot to unpack there. I think it’s great. Okay, like I told you off-camera. Every time I talk to you I’m getting knowledge bombs and so we need to pause. Let me unpack it. So really what you’re talking about is aiming your… You’ve got this salesforce. And most casinos have a host team. And it sound like you said, “The high-frequency players.” A lot of casinos will just say, “All right. Well, these are our high-frequency players. Host, you need to focus on them. When really that’s not the best way to drive incremental revenue because those players are coming in every day already kind of get a very personal experience because everybody in property knows them. They’re treated well. Whereas your host team would be better used identifying these pockets of players that are high value and you think there’s a high likelihood of being able driving incremental trips if they just touch them more.

(10:16-11:24) HH: Right. That’s right. The high frequent player. You just need to maintain them. So in other articles that I posted for example on LinkedIn. I refer to as hunters or huggers, pitchers/ catchers, order takers/ order getters. You need both of those type of players. Depending on what kind of vernacular you want to call your host team or how you want to label them. But you need both the huggers and the hunters on your team. You need the pitchers. You need the catchers on your team. Your department is best served by the salesforce that is focused on outbound efforts. But you still need to take care of your players when they’re on property. And some of that is done by people who are doing outbound because they’re greeting their player. But most of the work that’s done in terms of the heavy lifting related to getting people in the doors from your hunters or your pitchers. And then taking care of their needs while they’re on property. That’s a need. That needs to happen. And that’s with either a junior host or a VIP rep. Your casino host supporting your executive host for example.

(11:24-11:52) CS: So that leads into a question around incentive programs. So, how do you… What do you think some casinos… A lot casinos maybe do wrong with incentive programs, especially in light of this necessity for a hunter versus a hugger approach. What do you think some casinos missed the mark? And what is some advice around setting up a strong incentive program?

(11:52-14:01) HH: Well, ultimately you need to look at outcomes in the outcome our trips and then incremental revenue. Identifying a good baseline is inherently important. And it’s also important I think to separate out your frequency groups. So taking your high frequent players and putting them into a separate bucket. I like to put the high-frequency players into a maintenance bucket. And take them out of the incentive structure altogether. Again, no upside to them. They would re-enter the bucket. If in fact they followed a pattern and which they’ve got upside potential again. But in the meantime, they would be in a hosted group bucket. I think it’s inherently important to have a group of players that are specifically, and wholistically coded to the team of players. So it’s a team initiative where they’re working together forward. An outcome on all of the entire hosted universe and then people who are individually coded to specific host. And again, getting a baseline that is clear of any noise or outliers making sure people’s book of players is balanced. I think is also important in terms of worth, and trips, and frequency, and need. And then, measuring. And then sitting down specifically with each host and going over numbers and part of that equation is in productivity. How many calls did they make? How many dials did they make? I usually like to tie. my call accounting system to the host phone. So that I can measure how many dials that they made what was their talk time? What was their connectivity time? Again, all of that is an indicator toward their numbers. If they’re not making the numbers. They’re not doing the work. That’s typically the case. So, if they’re falling behind on their numbers, we go back to productivity. And usually, that’s the problem.

(14:01-14:22) CS: And that goes back to what you said earlier about conversion percentage. For example with URComped, you know our business not TRIO CRM, which I felt like you kind of laid me up there for a TRIO CRM plug because we do… With TRIO CRM automatically track outbound dials, and talktime, and everything.

(14:22-14:33) HH: Well, that’s perfect because a lot of places miss that. They miss the productivity measures and when the numbers aren’t there for a specific host they’re just not doing their work.

(14:33-15:18) CS: Yeah, because it’s… Sometimes its numbers will go up. Because a player had a rich aunt that just died and all of a sudden they’ve got their ADT tripled because they inherit a lot of money. And the host looks like he’s a rock star, but they just lucked out. And I liked what you said about. It’s about activity and conversion percentage is a smart way to compare it to. Because we run ads on Facebook. And so we know that for a thousand impressions, maybe we get 50 clicks. Maybe you have the 50 clicks. We get 10 people signing up. I just made up those numbers, but that’s kind of what it’s about. So what you’re saying is people running a host team should kind of look for that same equation with their team.

(15:18-16:10) HH: Absolutely and actually put those productivity measures in play in terms of a goal. Because that goal will show itself out in the numbers. It’s funny today. I was talking to someone. A general manager and they were talking about their daily operating report. And really examining the numbers. And what’s driving that number. Well, that’s the productivity measure I’m talking about. So when each host gets the result of their numbers for the month or the quarter of the year. When you’re looking at their number. It falls back to why aren’t they converting? It’s because they’re not making enough dials. They’re not connecting. They’re not sending enough emails. Or they’re not sending the text messages they need to be doing. They’re just not. They’re not performing and that performance needs to be managed.

(16:10-16:25) CS: Now we touched on… So there’s outbound activity. But there’s also maybe some nuance in type of outbound activity a call over, an email versus text message. What are your thoughts on that?

(16:25-17:21) HH: I think every player is completely different. And I think it’s a matter of understanding your player preferences. One of the tactics that I’ve employed in my career has been both the explicit and implied preferences. So the ones that we observe or maybe they’d be recorded. And actually put more weight against those compared to the ones that people indicate that they want. I for one am not a big telephone person. So I would rather be contacted via email or via text message. And I think that people between the ages of probably 35 and 45 that holds true. The older demographic typically like a phone call and like that personal connection. It depends on the player and it’s a matter of really knowing and understanding your player preferences.

(17:21-17:32) CS: You touched on implied versus explicit preferences. So maybe expand on that. What would imply versus explicit?

(17:32-19:10) HH: Yeah, stated or implied. So for example, particularly a low frequent or mid frequent group of players. You might send them a survey that allows them to check off things that they may be interested in and or preferences. And a lot of times they’ll fill it all out because they don’t want to miss an offer, right? Or they have an interest in something, but it’s not really what they like to do. But they’ll check it because again, they want to be included or involved in whatever might… Whatever offer might avail itself. When the actual real behavior that they display if we’re keeping track of that on the back end and comparing, and contrasting to what they stated. It’s the explicit preferences that we observe. You need to give more credence to that. I’ve seen player databases where there’s been preferences EDT Comes to mind and all that’s a dinosaur of a tracking system, but it allowed for pretty robust preferences included. And back in the day we had a roman forum with their preferences and almost all of the players check everything. So it was garbage. I mean the preferences was complete garbage because they didn’t differentiate on what they really want. Now I think with your high-end playerbase, they’re a little more discreet. But they still have a tendency of checking things. They may have a moderate or slight interest in compared to something they’re really pretty excited about.

(19:10-19:24) CS: So like, I’m not a crazy baseball fan just make something up. But I may still want to see baseball offers because maybe one out of a hundred of those games that actually want to go to. So that’s kinda what you’re saying, right?

(19:24-19:26) HH: That exactly what I’m saying. Yes.

(19:26-19:28) CS: I don’t want to never get it.

(19:28-20:04) HH: Yeah, I don’t want to miss out on something that the whole fear of missing out. So you want to… I think you want to know your players. Especially those low frequent players and your moderate frequent that you may not have all of the knowledge to know the nuances of what they really like or don’t like. So I think there’s value in gathering that via a survey. However, the real value is understanding what they like based on what they’re responding to. And what they’re actually participating in.

(20:04-20:37) CS: So you have a system in place that will track that and let them act as… So maybe what is an example. Let’s say, you’ve got, hosts have gotten good about keeping your ears open. And “Okay, that’s a preference I should track.” What’s a perfect scenario where they put it somewhere. And then do they say,” “All right, pull up my list of players that like X.” Or is it more just some they reference when they call, “Heidi, oh yeah. She likes the vikings or whatever like…”

(20:37-21:56) HH: It’s a little bit of both. So I typically have asked my host team to do pre-work before they make the phone call. So you play up the player profile. Pull up the player profile. You understand their last visit. You take a look at when is their birthday. Whatever they… What offers are they invited to? What events are they invited to? Concerts. And then you look at their profile. Their preference is both stated and explicit. And all that prep work leads toward a productive phone call as opposed to these one-off lists. Where in fact I’ve had in seeing departments where I’ve walked in. And there independently calling on specific lists. And they may be making three or four phone calls to the same player. And they look like completely unprepared. And that was actually stating it quite nice. But essentially they’re unprepared. They may be making one phone call to a player that, “Hey, happy birthday. And tomorrow they’re calling inviting them to an event. And maybe the next day. They’re letting them know that they have 50 dollars in free play available. Because they were independent list that were not merged and scrubbed against one another so doing the pre work is really important.

(21:56-22:02) CS: Well, I feel like you keep me teeing up to plug TRIO CRM. So I won’t jump every opportunity…

(22:02– HH: One of the things you and I talked about, we thought we didn’t touch on today. But I think it’s important that we at least talk about it. So I was part of the test environment when I was with Harrah’s. We did the marketing at the sandbox, that what it was called. Essentially. It was real time rules based marketing at the slots. Where our host would get a ping that someone triggered a rule. And in turn they were to go to the player and cut in based from the rule. And that rule may have been quick loss or perhaps they were recently reactivated after being dormant for three months or whatever the rule might have been that they triggered. And it took a really long time and in fact, I don’t think we ever massaged it to where the rules were meaningful enough to host where they could clear them in time. So there were so many rules that were being triggered and going off that in fact, they were all ignored. And I’ve seen throughout my career a lot of different applications that replicate this marketing at the slots. And they should’ve cut into people real time to form that relationship. And change the outcome of a trip again in real time. And unless those rules are really carefully thought-out and are managed to the day. And day of week. And to what the host can manage? It’s a complete failure and in fact, it can do more harm than not. So I caution on that, in which you need to do a lot of pre-work to understand how many alerts any one particular host can take in shift. And you don’t want that to be your pitchers, or hunters, or your order getters. You want that group of people to be your order takers, right? Those are the people that are working your gaming floor. Those are the people that are are fulfilling and satisfying needs on the gaming floor, but you certainly don’t want to take your players that are out there making outbound contact and put them on the floor to do that task. And again, I just caution. Again, I just caution against putting out rules that you can’t manage. Because again, it will do more harm than not. More damage than not. And eventually, it won’t take long really for your host completely ignore the alerts all together.

(24:38-24:58) CS: Yeah. I’ve seen at multiple properties wherein their Outlook they just have a folder. And it’s just real-time alerts, because they were getting a hundred emails a day about something. And then like, “I can’t deal with this.” So then, all of a sudden there’s a folder that never gets checked. And basically, the feature that they may be paying money for is just not being used because…

(24:58-25:35) HH: No it’s because it’s overwhelming. So that needs to be paired back to what is really real and manageable. Because weekends disproportionately is when the business happened. They need to be dynamic to where they can be changed and manage based on the day of week. So on a Saturday, your rules need to go.. the criteria needs paired way up. And they can be paired down during the week. But again that could be managed even by day. Someone needs to manage. I’ve seen too often to where the rules get set and it’s forgotten. And frankly, the host just can’t manage it.

(25:35-26:00) CS: So it sounds like, the… At a very high level, the approach when you come in is… Let’s analyze data base. We find the buckets of players. How many… Like, is there a range typically you like to find 5, 10, 50. I mean, how many buckets do you normally find after this gravity and cluster analysis?

(26:00-28:29) HH: It really depends on the market. So and again, I’ll use Las Vegas as an example. The databases in Las Vegas are small. Even Stations and Boyd they’ve got relatively small databases. Active databases. And as a result, their databases can be pretty chunked. Because their markets are small. Within 5 to 6 miles of their property and their active file maybe 20, 30 thousand records and that’s it. So your segmentation can be more granular because you don’t have enough records to be or be pretty chunked. Don’t have enough records to be very granular. You just don’t . Whereas in markets where you have a hundred twenty. A hundred fifty thousand active records. You can get pretty discreet in your segmentation. And the more discreet means, the better more targeted or responsible reinvestment. Again, depends on the size of the database. It always scares me in a regional market if a database has less than… Well less than 50,000 for sure. But a regional market should have a healthy 80 to 120 thousand records. And then you need to cut by frequency cells. And probably also by inner and outer market. And keep in mind, you have to think about what are the objectives of inner market. And mid-market. And outer market. And usually, those objectives for segmenting like that is because you’re protecting your hotel, right? Protecting your hotel from being filled with people who can self-drive. It’s part of a yielding strategy. A manual yielding strategy, but it certainly helps out your yielding application. If you’re using one, you also can reinvest less in your local market and your inner market. So again, it can be part of a reinvestment strategy. In the times of covid right now inner market. And even mid-market might be something to where you’re backing off on. Particularly from your lower worth players. Because again, you don’t really need them right now given capacity constraints. You’re going to want to focus more on your high-end players. And players further out. Yeah, but again, they need to think about what are your objectives of each of these segmentation strategies.

(28:29-28:46) CS: And it sounds… I haven’t heard you mention ADT. Obviously, ADT is very important with investment rate. But is these the clusters of the buckets of players? Well, the worth bands… You identify and then you add ADT on top of it? Like, the different…

(28:46-29:51) HH: Yep, and I like to use ADW which includes actual win as a component. One of the things that scares me. When I talk to people in the business is that they’re using the formula for ADW that Harrah’s put in playback in the early 2000’s, 2002. The problem with that is, that was for their portfolio. And they didn’t have but one formula. It seems like all of the Harrah’s people that went out and consulted. And or moved along brought along the ADW formula. And they brought it along just as it was with Harrah’s, but that needs to be a number that’s defined by what the data is telling you at that property. And again as an ADT component with an actual loss metric included. So again, just by throwing 40% of actual in that equation. Because it worked for Harrah’s. doesn’t mean it’s going to work for your Market. Every market is different.

(29:51-30:18) CS: Interesting. Okay. And then, I also thought it was interesting too. You said, “The inner, mid, outer market is a tool and large part used to yield the hotel.” Because you would potentially not offer a hotel to somebody who is very close. You’ve reserved it for somebody out of market because you don’t want a bunch of locals filling it up when they could just take an uber home or whatever.

(30:18-31:08) HH: Yeah, and it depends you can use them as an opportunity segment. So for example, in the wintertime when you’ve got residual hotel space. Now you need them so you can fold them back in with a hotel offer. But by cutting them out, you can differentiate their treatment. In terms of the hotel. In terms of free slot play. In terms of any number of offers, you might want to make them. Again, you might want to… If you are still in a cash environment. Meaning use cash as tool to get players in. You might want to not give them cash because their walk factor is higher. May be they only get free slot play. And they’re walk factor typically is double what it is for a mid-market or an outer market player. Not surprising, right?

(31:08-31:37) CS: So the high level… And clearly like just hearing you talk in this short conversation. And there’s a lot of nuance that I think if any operators is watching it’s like, “Man that all makes a lot of sense.” Clearly there’s… You can take this high-level blueprint but there’s so much nuance in every market that… They really should reach out to you Heidi. To really implement this. And actually, how do we get hold of you? If somebody’s watching. What’s the best way to get hold?

(31:37-32:10) HH: I have a website called, “The Strategic Casino Marketing Solutions.” So if you want to just go there. There’s a simple contact form you can fill out. Or you can call me directly. I am at (218) 429- 2953. And yeah, even I just like to talk about marketing and casino marketing. So even if we don’t enter into a longer relationship, I certainly would be happy to give you some free consult.

(32:10-32:14) CS: And I know we connected on LinkedIn as well. Is that a good spot for people to find you too?

(32:14-32:24) HH: Yep. I’m very active on LinkedIn. In fact, I write one or two or better articles usually smaller posts a week. So yeah, follow me there.

(32:24-32:37) CS: Yep. That’s what caught my eye was seeing your posts. I’m like, “Man, that she really gets it.” That’s a really deep stuff that you’re posting about marketing analytics. I’m glad I connected with you on there. I’d recommend…

(32:37-33:33) HH: Yeah, I love to talk about it. And if I can give you a hand in any way, even if it’s some free consult, I’d be happy to do that. One of the fun things I’ve been working on or was working on was taking an exponential smoothing average as opposed to simple ADT with the low and moderate frequent players. Because if you think about that group of people One and two data points are not statistically valid. And as a result of that, you need fold in other variables. So, start looking at velocity of play. Meaning how many times are they hitting the button? Or what’s their average bet? Because even if you’re not getting enough data or spins to get a true ADT. You probably directionally have enough data to understand what the upside potential of that players worth might be. So again, if you want more information, you just want to talk. Give me a call, reach out on LinkedIn. I’d be happy to help.

(33:33-34:30) CS: I’m going to try to summarize the conversation at a high level the blueprint is come in and analyze your database. You’re going to find different clusters of players that are different in every market. And can be based on frequency. It is based on frequency, geography, distance from the casino could be a big indicator and how often people go. But you identify these opportunities zones. And then it’s about that conversion rate, which is getting your host team. Especially the high level to just target them those opportunities players instead of the people that you’re already getting which is the easy way. And without actually coming enforcing that change that’s… We’re all human we’re going to take the easy way and you really… You’re saying, You really need management to force that outbound communication on the opportunity players instead of just hugging the people are coming in, anyway?

(34:30-35:06) HH: That’s absolutely right and that conversion holds true with response rates. Right to the players that are non hosted. So it’s the same thing. You start tracking response rates and they should take a longitudinal approach to all of your offers and start tracking them by day of week. By type of offer and start to see patterns emerge. And now you can get laser focus in terms of how many records you need to mail. Whatever qualifying criteria and project almost exactly who’s going to be coming through your door. It’s a science. It’s really cool stuff.

(35:06-35:47) CS: Well, you are a scientist. Everybody follow Heidi. Connect with her on LinkedIn. Heidi Hamers. H-E-I-D-I, H-A-M-E-R-S, but it’s gotta be in the show notes. And we posts on LinkedIn. So you’ll see it. And a lot what you’re talking about again. I’m plugging TRIO CRM just. because it… You’ve teed it up so many times but a lot of when it comes to that outbound host activity and tracking real touches TRIO does that. It’s got a real-time dashboards for management to see exactly how many text text messages, emails, phone calls going out. Perfect! Heidi plus TRIO is the one-two punch to dominate your market.

(35:47-35:48) HH: Yeah, I’m totally with it Craig.

(35:48-35:59) CS: That’s my Proclamation. Well Heidi, thank you so much. I think we left a lot on the table. So we got to do this again. So thank you for your time. Thanks for dropping all the knowledge on us.

(35:59-36:01) HH: Yeah, thank you. Have a great day.

(36:01-36:07) CS: You too.